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Unhappy1314
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 613
Location: New Frickin' Jersey
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 4:52 am Post subject: Let's talk trade!
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Fortunately, the anti-trade views of organized labor leaders aren't shared by the general public. According to a recent survey by the Pew Research Center for People and the Press, 79 percent of Americans believe that growing global trade and business ties are good for the country.
good article...rest is here...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52281-2003Aug12.html
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GoodFella
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 2400
Location: A little bit sideways!
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:35 am Post subject:
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Free trade is good. We all live in the same world right? ~GoodFella
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robbie_dee
Moderator
Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Posts: 113
Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:45 am Post subject:
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Is it fair that these trade deals allow capitalists to move their money across borders at will, in search of the best deal, but do not allow workers to move across borders, in search of the best wage for their labor?
I believe in freer, fair trade and I definitely believe in globalization. We all live in the same world, we're all in the same boat.
I don't believe that the current push towards a global "free trade" regime is about that, though. It seems to be to just be a racket to let multinational corporations evade their responsibilities to governments and to the people.
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GoodFella
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 2400
Location: A little bit sideways!
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Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:57 am Post subject:
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| robbie_dee wrote: |
Is it fair that these trade deals allow capitalists to move their money across borders at will, in search of the best deal, but do not allow workers to move across borders, in search of the best wage for their labor?
I believe in freer, fair trade and I definitely believe in globalization. We all live in the same world, we're all in the same boat.
I don't believe that the current push towards a global "free trade" regime is about that, though. It seems to be to just be a racket to let multinational corporations evade their responsibilities to governments and to the people. |
I would like workers to be able to move across borders too. ~GoodFella
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Action
Joined: 07 Aug 2003
Posts: 50
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Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 3:08 pm Post subject:
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So that would mean you'd be willing to see, and maybe join mass expansion of the Migrant Worker system: Auto Workers and Machinists and Electrical Engineers and System Designers - all trucking across the borders, families and belongings in the back, looking HOPING for a job - competing with Mexicans, Malaysians, Brazilians to see who will work for THE LOWEST PRICE??? That's what unprotected markets, including Labor markets are sliding towards. The Grapes Of Wrath was small time compared to what will happen if it is unchecked.
Who do you know that benefits from the changes in the US labor market?
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Unhappy1314
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 613
Location: New Frickin' Jersey
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Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 6:46 pm Post subject:
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| Action wrote: |
| So that would mean you'd be willing to see, and maybe join mass expansion of the Migrant Worker system: Auto Workers and Machinists and Electrical Engineers and System Designers - all trucking across the borders, families and belongings in the back, looking HOPING for a job - competing with Mexicans, Malaysians, Brazilians to see who will work for THE LOWEST PRICE???? |
yes
when companies have to pay more for wages, the price they pay is then passed along to you, the consumer, so all that wonderful money you just earned thanks to your closed market, is wasted on un-needed price hikes on goods and services
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centralnj1
Joined: 06 Jul 2003
Posts: 234
Location: Greenville, North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 8:37 pm Post subject:
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Look what free trade did for manufacturing in the US. The last clothing manufacturers are now leaving North Carolina and furniture isn't far behind. And now companies are finding jobs in the service sector are cheaper overseas as well. Bye-bye jobs! What happens when most of service jobs are gone too?
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Unhappy1314
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 613
Location: New Frickin' Jersey
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Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 3:49 am Post subject: Re: Let's talk trade!
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| Quote: |
Yet even as some labor leaders lobby against trade agreements on Capitol Hill, many rank-and-file union members are reaping the rewards of economic openness. United Parcel Service, for example, the nation's largest employer of Teamsters, announced during the debates on the Singapore and Chile agreements that soaring trade had boosted international profits by more than 150 percent over the past quarter. The company estimates that every 40 packages shipped overseas create one new job -- usually a union job -- here at home.
Labor leaders urge the United States to "learn the lesson of NAFTA." Well, the lesson NAFTA teaches is that open trade is good for American workers, farmers, businesses and families. After NAFTA was signed in 1993, domestic employment, farm exports, manufacturing output and real wages all increased. From 1993 to 2000, civilian employment in the U.S. economy rose by a net 16 million jobs. During that same period, U.S. agricultural exports to Mexico and Canada grew 57 percent, and U.S. manufacturing output rose by 41 percent -- even as the volume of imported manufactured goods more than doubled. U.S. manufacturing has endured a slump recently, but this has been part of a cyclical downturn, not the result of a structural problem stemming from trade. Economic indicators already show that the sector is recovering. Abandoning open markets on the cusp of an upturn could be disastrous -- a modern repeat of Smoot-Hawley protectionism that helped turn a 1930s recession into the Great Depression.
Free trade generates economic growth through exports, but it also improves the real wages and purchasing power of American families through imports. The two major U.S. trade agreements during the 1990s, NAFTA and the Uruguay Round, increased incomes and provided consumers with a greater choice of goods at better prices, raising living standards for a typical American family of four by up to $2,000 a year.
Imports also boost the productivity of America's businesses. From auto parts to computer parts, they help hold down production costs and make U.S. products more competitive at home and abroad.
Open global markets create investment opportunities, too, and the United States receives more foreign investment than any other nation in the world. International capital flows have helped keep U.S. interest rates low, funded new U.S. business ventures, increased U.S. productivity and wages and created new American jobs. |
what part of this do you guys not understand?
did you even read the damn article, or are you reacting to the title?
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licatsplit
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Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Posts: 43
Location: On the banks of the Yocona River.
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Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 8:40 am Post subject:
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I read the article and IMHO, a commentary on free trade coming from one who was appointed by president Bush to the position as Deputy U.S. Trade Representative with a rank of Ambassador, is certainly not middle of the road and leans heavily towards the corporate side of the equation.
In all fairness, I submit the testimony of Thea M. Lee, before the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Energy and Commerce. Lee is chief international economist for the AFL-CIO, and he had this to say, "The AFL-CIO believes that increased international trade and investment can yield broad and substantial benefits, both to American working families, and to our brothers and sisters around the world -- if done right".
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lowmorale
Joined: 05 Jul 2003
Posts: 1522
Location: chicagoland by the big guys
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Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 1:24 pm Post subject:
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Todays America is far removed from the America of the 19th century, both in time and in spirit. Todays Social landscape is one of deteriotion. Violence and mounting fear. After adjusting for inflation take home pay DECREASED 17% just between 1980-1997, while CEO's and executive had the highest inflation of pay in history. WHY????? Hgih taxes and regulations are crippling our economy. Few Americans can afford this much longer, they are maxed out on credit cards bank ruptcy and homes are being forclosed on in the fastest segment of society. WHY ?? ? Well for one the typical American workers spends five months of each year just to pay the goverment, Now add another percentage to pay the CEO's that run your company, add cost of getting to work, and the rate of fuel is on the increase. Now add the high cost of medical insurance out of your check, and tell me how much is left
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robbie_dee
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Joined: 01 Jul 2003
Posts: 113
Location: Cambridge, MA
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Posted: Fri Aug 15, 2003 6:03 pm Post subject:
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| Quote: |
| After adjusting for inflation take home pay DECREASED 17% just between 1980-1997, while CEO's and executive had the highest inflation of pay in history. WHY????? Hgih taxes and regulations are crippling our economy. Few Americans can afford this much longer, they are maxed out on credit cards bank ruptcy and homes are being forclosed on in the fastest segment of society. WHY ?? ? Well for one the typical American workers spends five months of each year just to pay the goverment, Now add another percentage to pay the CEO's that run your company, add cost of getting to work, and the rate of fuel is on the increase. |
(my emphasis added)
This is a little off the topic of free trade. I am also not entirely sure I agree with your analysis that "high taxes and regulations are crippling the economy," because I understand that we've been through a series of tax cuts and de-regulation for the last 20 years with less than stellar results so far.
But I will point out that if those CEOs paid a higher share of taxes out of their rapidly inflating salaries, that could sure help take some of the burden off of the suffering middle classes. Agreed?
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Unhappy1314
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 613
Location: New Frickin' Jersey
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Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 5:52 am Post subject:
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| robbie_dee wrote: |
| Quote: |
| After adjusting for inflation take home pay DECREASED 17% just between 1980-1997, while CEO's and executive had the highest inflation of pay in history. WHY????? Hgih taxes and regulations are crippling our economy. Few Americans can afford this much longer, they are maxed out on credit cards bank ruptcy and homes are being forclosed on in the fastest segment of society. WHY ?? ? Well for one the typical American workers spends five months of each year just to pay the goverment, Now add another percentage to pay the CEO's that run your company, add cost of getting to work, and the rate of fuel is on the increase. |
(my emphasis added)
This is a little off the topic of free trade. I am also not entirely sure I agree with your analysis that "high taxes and regulations are crippling the economy," because I understand that we've been through a series of tax cuts and de-regulation for the last 20 years with less than stellar results so far.
But I will point out that if those CEOs paid a higher share of taxes out of their rapidly inflating salaries, that could sure help take some of the burden off of the suffering middle classes. Agreed? |
i agree to that...CEOs get paid way to much money for not doing a whole lot...as head of a company, they deserve SOME compensation, but not near the amount they are getting
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RatchetHead
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 395
Location: Still on The Hill (Ya Think?)
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Posted: Sat Aug 16, 2003 7:41 am Post subject:
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Roll on 'UnHappy",
For thay wish not to go. For they might just find themself`s having to answer a "question" or two.
Think before you try to answer,
Ratchet
P.S. - It`s your dime.
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CCCs
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 765
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 5:37 pm Post subject:
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With much of the focus in the South Carolina primaries and what one would assume to be a more intense focus during the presidential election maybe we should all take a closer look at this issue again. Here is a link promoting the benefits of free trade.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/bminiter/?id=110004637
What do consumers want, more jobs here but pay much higher prices for goods, or lower priced goods? I would argue that the lower priced goods are being demanded by consumers...so the after effects of free-trade are a necessary evil to appease the them.
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Unhappy1314
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 613
Location: New Frickin' Jersey
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Posted: Tue Feb 03, 2004 6:46 pm Post subject:
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| CCCs wrote: |
With much of the focus in the South Carolina primaries and what one would assume to be a more intense focus during the presidential election maybe we should all take a closer look at this issue again. Here is a link promoting the benefits of free trade.
http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/bminiter/?id=110004637
What do consumers want, more jobs here but pay much higher prices for goods, or lower priced goods? I would argue that the lower priced goods are being demanded by consumers...so the after effects of free-trade are a necessary evil to appease the them. |
exactly what i have been saying all along!
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CCCs
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
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grendel
Joined: 08 Jan 2004
Posts: 13
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Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 4:59 pm Post subject:
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| Unhappy1314 wrote: |
| Action wrote: |
| So that would mean you'd be willing to see, and maybe join mass expansion of the Migrant Worker system: Auto Workers and Machinists and Electrical Engineers and System Designers - all trucking across the borders, families and belongings in the back, looking HOPING for a job - competing with Mexicans, Malaysians, Brazilians to see who will work for THE LOWEST PRICE???? |
yes
when companies have to pay more for wages, the price they pay is then passed along to you, the consumer, so all that wonderful money you just earned thanks to your closed market, is wasted on un-needed price hikes on goods and services |
has the proce of cars or shoes gone down since they have moved out of the country not that I have seen.
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FOOTSOLDIER
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 1037
Location: Formerly 3333
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Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2004 4:19 pm Post subject:
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I am a strong Bush advocate on virtually all issues but on this one, I disagree strongly with him. Trade agreements such as NAFTA have had a very negative impact on our workforce and our economy.
I do believe in free trade as long as it's FAIR trade. If you don't have a level playing field, then you get what we have today. We're importing everything made in foreign countries and exporting nothing but jobs that put thousands of Americans out of work so that other countries can employ workers at a fraction of the cost.
This is not a Republican or Democrat issue as agreements such as NAFTA have had support from both Bush's and Clinton. This is an American issue that, if not corrected, will have a devastating economic impact for generations to come.
Write the President. Write your Senators. Write your Congressmen and women. We must level the playing field if we ever hope to compete and continue to thrive as an economic power.
Footsoldier
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CCCs
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 765
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Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 6:01 am Post subject:
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| Quote: |
| Actually, even that's not clear. While we could certainly make American workers less productive, there probably isn't much we can do to prevent American companies from outsourcing or offshoring work to cheaper locales, short of making it against the law. (Outsourcing increases productivity by lowering a company's production costs, which, put differently, means you can produce more for the same amount of money.) Kerry has put forth a series of proposals intended to keep manufacturing work in the United States--closing tax loopholes that reward offshoring, providing tax credits to encourage domestic manufacturing. But the effect of these proposals would be exceedingly marginal. As long as, say, Mexican autoworkers make about one-fifth what American autoworkers make, saving a few thousand dollars on payroll taxes isn't going to make much difference. (And, please, no letters about trade. Trade is analogous to outsourcing--over time, if effectively raises productivity. Click here for an explanation.) |
Footie,
The reality of the situation is that we are part of a global economy that will only continue to be more "globalized" by the year. There is no way to put this genie back in the bottle. Check out these articles looking at the issue from a fairly unbiased viewpoint (hard to find these days.)
Free Trade
Free Trade 2
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centralnj1
Joined: 06 Jul 2003
Posts: 234
Location: Greenville, North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 2:23 am Post subject:
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I remember during "show & tell" in grade school I was amazed at seeing things made in different countries. That was in 1967, now I'm amazed at seeing made in America. How ironic.
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Bodyguard
Joined: 04 Jul 2003
Posts: 1337
Location: The Collective
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 6:33 am Post subject:
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Protectionism will not help the economy at all...trade is a fact of life. The answer is for us to compete not to protect. Lets face it...not every job on the planet is worth 50,000$ a year. Look at it another way.....the more Mexicans that have a good job the fewer who will try to cross the border illeagaly. I dont care that they are Mexicans mind you, I just care that ALL immigrants immigrate leagaly.
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FOOTSOLDIER
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 1037
Location: Formerly 3333
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Posted: Mon Mar 08, 2004 1:02 pm Post subject:
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So our workers and our economy are to pay the price while we bring so-called third world countries along? I never thought one of our missions was to destroy the lives of so many Americans so we can raise the standard of living elsewhere.
Pink slips are still being issued and job growth is stagnant at best. The fact that ANYONE is surprised by this is amazing. What did those who were touting NAFTA think was going to happen?
Footie
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CCCs
Joined: 07 Jul 2003
Posts: 765
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Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:08 am Post subject:
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Footie,
The goal is not bring along so called third world countries. The goal is to bring less expensive items into the United States for consumption. We are a nation of consumers...and as consumers we demand cheaper prices whenever we can...hence the success of Wal-Mart. We create our own problems with our insatiable desire for cheap goods.
CCCs
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sleK
Administrator
Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 1017
Location: over yonder
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Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:17 am Post subject:
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| We create our own problems with our insatiable desire for cheap goods. |
Ding!
Hit the nail on the head.
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ahriman01
Joined: 17 Feb 2004
Posts: 112
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Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:41 am Post subject:
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I second that notion.
Ahriman
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